[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

May I ask a question? I notice a lot of posts are being purged here so I’m not sure what I can ask and what I can’t. But it seems like there are two issues being rolled up into one ball here and efforts to solve one have been exacerbating the other.

1. On one hand we have new players being trounced as they’re learning the game and unable to adequately defend themselves. They don’t yet have the stats, resources, game knowledge, or social connections.
2. On the other hand we have griefers who are using low level alts to wreak havoc. They block roads, raid bases, troll players, leverage infamy against others due to their low level, etc.

The common problem here isn’t low levels or high levels, but griefers who will gravitate to whichever level affords them an advantage in their griefing. But isn’t there a straightforward solution that dissolves both these problems?

It will take some background work, but the logic is simple.

This time when players leave the tutorial they are teleported to the center of a new 500×500 map. This map is PvE, and doesn’t allow construction/destruction. It also features a prominent, prebuild town with free claimable housing (expiring after, for example, two weeks of inactivity). The entire game can be played from this map, with the exception of construction/destruction and PvP. You would risk PvP by going to the UW.

No PvP means no griefing, no construction/destruction means no griefing.
Everyone’s happy yes?

Now, players can also choose to play on the current, PvP map. This map is the “wild west”. There are no protections, you play here at your own risk. The benefits are you can engage in construction/destruction, and PvP. It’s a much more interesting social environment but one geared towards people familiar with the game. They embrace the higher risk for this more interesting gameplay at their own discretion. Other perks can be debated.

Importantly, the PvE and PvP map can be linked in one of four ways (that I can think of).

1. First is a one-way trip. If you go PvP you can’t go back, your character becomes “hardcore”. This would be to stop griefers or thieves from being able to “escape” to the PvE map to escape reciprocity for their actions in the PvP map. Frankly, a return of permalogin would also be ideal, as would increased death penalties. This philosophy is active, retributive, punitive social order. AKA how ML used to be, this would make the PvP map a decidedly “hardcore” map you cannot leave.
2. Second is the same as above, except the focus is on defense rather than offense. The idea is to be able to adequately defend yourself from the possibility of griefing preemptively, therefore not necessitating reciprocity. Larger areas can be build in and enclosed, excluding strangers (including ropers). Walled towns can be adequately built and maintained keeping out troublemakers. This may require some changes to the verticality properties of the present game (ropes, stairs). This would be necessary to make a defensive philosophy tenable.
3. Third is two-way transportation, but you have to earn it. This is troublesome because people can run away to the PvE map for safety with their ill-gotten gains, but ideally by having a high requirement to enter the PvP map mindless griefing should be minimalized. In this example you would have to reach a certain level, such as 50, before you can enter the PvP map. Ideally the investment would deter most griefers. But it would still allow determined ones, which is a flaw.
4. Fourth is that by entering the PvP map (after knowingly choosing to do so), you become flagged for PvP, even on the PvE map. This means you can be killed in the PvE map, and your home can be raided in the PvE map. Alternatively this could utilize an “Infamy-like” system to flag you for PvP in the PvE map if you engage in PvP-like behavior, but with no other penalties (no slows, debuffs, etc.). This way raiders and thieves can still be pursued after they’ve engaged in villainous behavior.

I’m most keen on the first or second option, and also the defensive PvP properties of the second option would also be good for the third and fourth options regardless. And heck, the first as well. The third and fourth options both run the risk of having a “safe” “unflagged” “bank” alt in the PvE map which stolen items can be stashed on. But this is already possible anyway. The fundamental key here is to create a safe map that negates griefing, and a dangerous map where griefing can be dealt with. This resolves both the problems of high level griefers, and low level griefers, without adding mechanics (Infamy) that can simply be further griefed.

At this moment the problems the players of ML are facing are systemic, and really do have to be resolved—we know this. Infamy doesn’t dissolve these problems, but builds on them in ways that, by definition, can only simply be further exploited. This is why I firmly believe it is the wrong choice for an open construction sandbox such as ML, and that development time should be invested in resolutions that dissolve current problems, rather than piling more problems on top in a mechanical balancing act which I am convinced can only be futile.

Please do not nuke this post, it is my sincere feedback on the infamy system.

Sincerely,

Seryn

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

The drawback is new players will be stuck making houses out of chopsticks. :\

Sufficient accessible pre-built housing to cover new players who could then “graduate” to building their own homes at a sufficient construction level could be a solution, but that’d be a pretty dull grind even by our standards.

Are roadblocks being caused by new throw-aways every time or known trolls? If the latter they could just get the construction levels and keep trolling if they haven’t already. I’m not sure this would stop people who’ve made griefing their game.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

But there’s a wall between your garden and the inside of your house right? Has to be to keep floor tiles from decaying, so they’re no closer than they would be if they were outside, besides the added inconvenience of now being stuck in your garden until they build some stairs.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

I realize getting new sprites is probably one of the biggest bottlenecks for this game, but it’d definitely be great if we had ways to add more color that weren’t a security risk. Trees, bushes, flowerbeds. Interior design too…

Dunno why someone would want to rope into a garden though besides vandalism.

In the mean time: Is there any chance bushes and trees growing next to roads could have a grass edge? Rather than being a straight square dirt box. That alone feels like it would be phenomenal and shouldn’t require new graphics.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

Yes, have you noticed the “IMG” button?

The one that asks for an image URL?

Think he’s asking for native image hosting so they can be uploaded directly.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

I’m fine with fishing for runes, the rates could be better though.

If that got fixed up I’d probably come back and do some crafting again.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

First post! Welcome! 😀

Nothing has a determined price, if gems are expensive it’s because they’re somewhat rare. Making more uses for a rare resource is going to increase demand not supply.

Just something to keep in mind.

I didn’t have trouble getting gems but then again I was a crazy mining maniac, so I dunno. At least in my experience the balance was fine but that’s just my anecdote.

Some overlap:

2:Slayer – Bonus damage to the undead (Skeletons, summoner, reaper,creeper and red bones)
4:The Hunt – Bonus damage to wildlife (standard animals)

The hunter skill adds 1 damage per 2 levels to NPCs (assuming it hasn’t changed since I tested it awhile back); it’s enchanted with amethyst, garnet, and topaz.

6:Strength – Adding Bonus attack damage against everything (Could add a very rare gem in the next content updade to drop this gem)
7:Defender – adding bonus armor

Damage is already enchanted with rubies, defense is enchanted with emeralds.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

Increased the population and breeding limits of all NPCs in the overworld and underworld. Also increased population of berry bushes and sped up their regrowth.

When there are no animal farms, you can find animals in the world. You’ve always had animal farms, so you didn’t notice the way others did.

This is news to me. /scratches head

I do want to correct though that I have not always had a sheep farm, you can find posts of mine where I complain bitterly about how “impossible” I found knitting to be when you could hike for hours without finding any sheep.

And I confess myself curious about when there were no farms. I’ve never seen the wild sheep population thick enough to be a sufficient supply, animals in general have always been too sparse for that. So I’m not sure what you mean.

But either way, I still think you must agree that this is a necessary feedback issue, not a sheep farmers are villains issue. If sheep farms are a detriment to other players that calls for balance changes, not anarchy.

The perfect solution to your immediate problem of course would be an open/public sheep farm that everyone can share, but let me tell you that was a pain in the ass. Players broke it repeatedly and repairs took hours.

I don’t think they were malicious either, just impatient/clueless.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

Please clarify what you’re speaking about.

I’m not sure which of us is correct, so we should probably ask the dev. What we do know is only chickens have a max world population, so however many sheep or cows are penned up they don’t count against any kind of cap. It might be that if more are penned up, less will spawn in the wild, but if so it’s the first I’ve heard of it. We’d have to ask the dev to know for sure.

But from my own experience I can say that even when there aren’t any farms at all, it’s impossible to find enough sheep outside. It’s not a situation of ‘we break all the farms and now everyone’s happy.’ If you want any amount of wool, farms are a necessity. Breaking farms just means now there’s no wool for anyone since sheep will rarely (basically, only by accident) breed in the wild.

This is because breeding spawns only happen when the sheep are forced close together, which rarely happens with random pathing animal behavior. The reason you see farms crammed with sheep is because they’re artificially set up to trigger these spawning rules. Nobody corrals dozens of sheep out of the wild, they work very hard to catch 2 and start a flock from there.

But if there aren’t enough sheep, this is a beta–we should report it to the dev and see if spawn rates can be increased or some other fix implemented. We shouldn’t be taking it out on other players by breaking their farms; we both know it’s legit work finding any sheep to start one, and the farms take consistent maintenance after that as well since sheep die of old age every 2-3 days.

We’re supposed to make farms, that’s how sheep and cows especially have been designed. If there’s a problem it’s up to us as beta testers to let the dev know so the design can be improved. Vandalism helps nobody.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

Killing animals in a nature area is not even griefing. The game mechanics allow for easy access to nature areas, so you can’t expect to be able to protect these areas. There are limits to how many animals can spawn in the world. When a few players have these animal farms, they hoard all the animals. New players have a hard time finding these animals for their own needs. This is very unfair, because players like tirioll are only hoarding these animals so they can AFK farm myst. How is this fair to other players that they are allowed to do this? It is not fair, so it is only fair that others can come into your area and kill these animals.

It seems you are laboring under some handy misconceptions, or I am.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

Sorry to see this fall through, I hope you’re met with more luck in the future when more people are playing.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

How effective are arrow towers these days? If they pop up inside there shouldn’t be any cover.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

Using some form of feed or bait to get animals to follow you for a short period of time would be amazing; a tweaked dog AI might work since dogs follow you after being fed.

Buffing animals I’m less interested in, they die of old age after 2-3 days anyway. A sheep farm with proper spawns can net hundreds of wool fine when it’s set up right.

so that players don’t hog all the animals

better than it is now with a few people that have an “Animal monopoly”

This applies to chickens but not sheep or cows, and I haven’t seen chickens being aggressively farmed enough to make a difference in several months. Sheep in particular are just obnoxiously rare, which is why people build farms to breed flocks in the first place. You just need to find two sheep to start with, which can be a pain.

If you’re feeling philanthropic you can set up open sheep spawns, but since the sheep die they need to be frequently replaced; I eventually just focused on my own farm. Alternatively I used to leave my farm open to the public but other players would break the spawns and kill every sheep they saw so I wouldn’t recommend it.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by  Seryn.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

It’s a really interesting design problem. Logging out characters and having indestructible houses makes the game more chill, but if someone does steal from you it also means you can’t get them back for it. Whereas in ye olden days if someone broke your base and took your stuff you could just break theirs back and retrieve it.

It didn’t stop people from being cutthroat, certainly; that was the bloodiest period in the beta’s history after all. But it meant people weren’t impervious to the consequences of their actions. It does rankle that someone can steal my stuff and then log it out on an alt or put it in a house and there’s no way I can get it back period.

For an open sandbox that’s reliant on reciprocity I’m not sure how to reconcile that.

Passing suggestion: Rambling aside, I was wondering if we could fix it so that interior walls don’t decay. Building a fort with decent defenses right now means walls, walls, and more walls, and keeping them all fixed is a huge drain on individual players if you don’t have a large tribe all helping out when walls can be <50% in 2-3 days.

If we could only repair the exterior facing walls it would be a great help, right now I don’t think players can keep up with the amount of walls they should fairly be able to build and maintain simply to protect their own belongings unless they dedicate quite a bit more time to daily repairs than I’d argue is reasonable.

Edt: Please Admin, is it possible to fix my beard to be visibleon the website as it is in-game? Thank you ♥

Is it white? It looks like your avatar has a white beard, it’s just less noticeable because of the white forum background, but it stands out a bit more this way.

[Seryn Lvl 300 USEast2SkeletonPosts: 166]

Thanks. ^_^

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